Experience First: Redefining Legal Intelligence at Scale
What makes a data strategy actually work inside a law firm?
In this episode, Carrie Remhof, Director of Firm Intelligence at Troutman Pepper Locke LLP, shares what she’s learned from building, implementing, and reimagining legal data systems across 30+ firms. She talks about the real reasons legal tech projects succeed or stall, why data perfection is a myth, and how firms can adopt a “fail fast” mindset without compromising on risk.
Carrie also walks us through her unique journey from software engineer to legal tech leader, offering candid advice on hybrid profiling, AI adoption, and how to avoid “data hoarding.” Plus, she breaks down how her team used AI to unify attorney bios post-merger, why curiosity matters more than credentials, and what it takes to foster a culture of innovation in a conservative industry.
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DescriptiTranscription
ENTEGRATA | OVERRULED BY DATA | CARRIE REMHOF
Episode Transcript
This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human.
[00:00:00] Carrie Remhof: Business analysis skills are like the most important to me. I can teach you a technology right? At any point in time you get a new app on your phone, you figure out what to do with it. Technology can be taught, but customer service and analysis skills are. The number one for me.
[00:00:17] Tom Baldwin: My name's Tom Baldwin.
[00:00:18] Tom Baldwin: This is Overruled by Data, the podcast for law firms looking to start their data journey or accelerate the journey they're already on, brought to you by Entegrata. Welcome everybody. Today on Overruled by Data. We're joined by someone who's lived legal data from every angle, law firm, leader, tech vendor, and implementation strategist.
[00:00:39] Tom Baldwin: Carrie Remhof is the director of Firm Intelligence at Troutman Pepper Locke. I got that right where she's led an award-winning rollout of their data platform and experience systems. She's worked with over 30 law firms during her time at Litera and now she's back in house turning. Insight into action. Today we'll talk about what makes implementations work, why does starting matters more than perfection, and how AI is changing the way law firms understand themselves.
[00:01:08] Tom Baldwin: Carrie Remhof, welcome to the show.
[00:01:11] Carrie Remhof: Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:14] Tom Baldwin: Excellent. So you have an amazing background and very few folks can talk from the perspectives that you have. So maybe you could start off by telling us a little bit of your paths from Wilmer, to Litera, now Troutman, what have you taken from each chapter in that journey?
[00:01:30] Carrie Remhof: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I can talk about my career a little bit. So I started first with the Fortune 500 company. I was a software engineer, right? Went to school for computer science. I'm like, I'm gonna be a developer. This is gonna be great. It's gonna be fun. I worked for this Fortune 500 company that did, did printing.
[00:01:51] Carrie Remhof: So. That didn't last very long, but with it as a software engineer, like I have all of those problems solving skills and, and during that part of my career, I learned I like coding, but I also like people. So I had an opportunity to move in more of their sales operations groups. So I started working with CRM, so I started with salesforce.com.
[00:02:13] Carrie Remhof: I'm like, this is really cool. This is really cool. This blending of my technical skills and my people skills to help my company. And then a recruiter popped up and was like, Hey, would you wanna come work for legal? And I was like, sure, I'll give this a go.
[00:02:29] Tom Baldwin: Um, you weren't turned, I mean, I would think the initial reaction would be you.
[00:02:33] Carrie Remhof: I was like, I something new. Why not? I mean, printing was dying. So
[00:02:38] Tom Baldwin: Fair. Fair.
[00:02:40] Carrie Remhof: So legal seemed like a good industry to get into. So join, join the firm. Took my CRM skills and implemented them at the law firm. Um, so I, I, I took what we had with LexisNexis interaction. I reshaped it, got attorneys in there using it, and then about a decade ago, I.
[00:03:01] Carrie Remhof: All of a sudden this new tool popped up of experience management. I was like, Hey, what is that? So it's where we learned, oh, we wanna capture, you know, information about the experience the firm has done. So that's when we became an early adopter of foundation. So, and that was at
[00:03:17] Tom Baldwin: Wilmer.
[00:03:18] Carrie Remhof: It was at Wilmer.
[00:03:19] Carrie Remhof: Yes. We were client number nine. A foundation.
[00:03:22] Tom Baldwin: Wow. So, wow. Very cool.
[00:03:24] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, very exciting. So we got to see it from the beginning, right? And kind of help shape the product into what it is today, which has been very exciting. So I spent a few years on that at WilmerHale. Very excited. I got it implemented in four months, up and running, people using it.
[00:03:40] Carrie Remhof: And then I reached a point where I just wanted to do more with foundation, so I reached out to. My great vendor, foundation software group, and I was like, Hey, I, I'd love to just spend more time with Foundation. And, and they jumped on it and they're like, yes, come join us. Right? So I worked at Litera for two years and I went there thinking, oh, I know Foundation.
[00:04:01] Carrie Remhof: This is gonna be good. And I get there and I'm like, oh, I know 20% are foundation, right? I don't know the true like support technical backend of things, but it was so exciting to come in. And kind of reshaped the right the way Litera was doing implementations, because initially I went in there and then I'm like, we have a 254 step implementation plan.
[00:04:24] Carrie Remhof: I was like, that is a lot to take in, like for a new customer. So I worked to create work streams, right? So it turned into like seven work streams, get your matter set up, get your clients set up right. It was easier to understand, you know, the seven steps to get foundation implemented versus the 254 steps.
[00:04:43] Carrie Remhof: So with that, I was such a big advocate of foundation and I loved really innovative firms that were doing really cool things with it. So when Troutman had an opportunity. On their innovation team. I was like, oh, that sounds so exciting to me because I'm such a proponent of foundation and what it can do.
[00:05:00] Carrie Remhof: And I think the most successful firms are the ones that treat it as a firm-wide platform and have a space for innovation. So two years ago when Trump had an opening, I jumped, I was like, I wanna join the leading firm. Um
[00:05:14] Tom Baldwin: Right.
[00:05:15] Carrie Remhof: Firm.
[00:05:16] Tom Baldwin: And, and so, and that's interesting your time. You started off very technical.
[00:05:21] Tom Baldwin: And you, you found sort of the unicorn role that allows you to flex your technical muscle, but also those people skills that not everyone technical has. If you were to give me like three sentences from each stop, Wilmer, Litera, and Troutman, looking back, what have you, what have you taken, you know, just in a couple sentences from each of those roles.
[00:05:40] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, so definitely starting with Wilmer, there's such. You know, a huge firm, right? And so, such good advocates of their people and they're ready to try new things, right? So I, I was very lucky there to be able to try something new, right? And, and try it quickly. I. So I, I was very lucky with getting foundation there.
[00:06:01] Carrie Remhof: And then Litera, the best part of that was building the connections, right? I worked on about 30 different projects and I got to see 30 different ideas, 60 different ideas, right? To kind of think of all the possibilities. That you can do with foundation. And then also see the struggles that firms have to think, okay, what are creative ways we can get around those struggles to get them moving forward?
[00:06:26] Carrie Remhof: And then Troutman, my current role, what I learned here is to innovate, right? Is to take it to the next level, right? So I've been on foundation for a decade and now I'm like, what can I do more? Foundation is such a strong platform that I wanna think, what more can I add to it? How can I compliment it with other systems?
[00:06:47] Tom Baldwin: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:47] Carrie Remhof: Right? And and do what's best for Troutman.
[00:06:50] Tom Baldwin: So without naming names, the 30 firms, just to give me a range from the smallest firm in terms of lawyer headcount to the largest I. Ballpark.
[00:06:59] Carrie Remhof: So Foundation is, is very focused on the AmLaw 100. So a lot of the firms are definitely in the AmLaw 100, um, piece.
[00:07:08] Carrie Remhof: I would say at least 80% of who I worked with were in the AmLaw 100, then the other 20%.
[00:07:15] Tom Baldwin: Good. And so with that kind of framing in mind, what's something you saw, you know, kind of sandwiched between two firms as a vendor? That you wish more law firms when they're exploring any kind of experience or CRM system for that matter, what would you want them to know going into it that maybe as a vendor you wish they had a better grip on outta the gate?
[00:07:34] Carrie Remhof: I think the best advice is that they need to do what's right for their firm. So many firms will start implementations and say, well, what should we do? Well, what, what do other firms do? You have to do what's right for your firm, right? You want a client industry list. What makes the best sense for your firm?
[00:07:54] Carrie Remhof: Make a decision. Know that it's the firm that makes the decision. Sure, you can understand what other people are doing, but ultimately do what's right for your firm.
[00:08:03] Tom Baldwin: Did you find that there wasn't always a strong use case kind of right outta the gate?
[00:08:08] Carrie Remhof: I did find some of that, right? And then so many times they think the technology is gonna fix the business process, which is classic.
[00:08:16] Tom Baldwin: Fair. Fair.
[00:08:17] Carrie Remhof: Yeah. So with that, sometimes I would push back even as the vendor and say, we can't move forward in this until you've defined a business process. Right? Because so many people just wanna build a million fields of like, oh, you know, attorneys are gonna fill this out. No they're not. No, they're not gonna fill out a hundred fields.
[00:08:38] Carrie Remhof: You'll be lucky if they do two fields right? So come up with that business process of when do you know that piece of information in the matter life cycle to go get it.
[00:08:48] Tom Baldwin: And I don't know if this would be a repeat of what you just said, but when you think about the mind shift that firms need to take when adopting and trying to build out a successful.
[00:08:58] Tom Baldwin: Platform like foundation, what would, what would you say is the biggest shift in mindset they have to take?
[00:09:03] Carrie Remhof: I think the shift is very much looking internally, right to say, okay. I am not gonna hit all practice groups from the start, right? I, I can't, I can't do all 25 of them, right? I'm going to focus on the ones that have a good business process.
[00:09:21] Carrie Remhof: The ones that are eager, the ones that wanna get in it and do it, and maybe it's only two or three practice groups that you start with, right? Because they wanna do it. They have top level commitment to get it done. You work with those, you're successful. And then you have your success stories to sell internally to other practice groups, right?
[00:09:41] Carrie Remhof: Because lawyers love competition, right? So all of a sudden this practice group that sits down the hall from you has this cool new tool that you don't, well, that's gonna be more compelling than me giving another demo of foundation.
[00:09:56] Tom Baldwin: Fair. Switching gears a little bit, so now you've taken on this new role as Director of Firm Intelligence, and we're seeing more firms adopt a title that's akin to this.
[00:10:06] Tom Baldwin: Tell us a little bit about what that means at Troutman and how does it differ from the stuff you've done in the past?
[00:10:11] Carrie Remhof: So I'm excited about my new role. So what my team does for firm Intelligence, while I talk about foundation the most, there's other tool sets we use as well and support. But the main purpose of our team is connecting insight across the firm.
[00:10:27] Carrie Remhof: So one thing we like to do is all the pardon the interruption emails that come through. We get copied on all of them and we try to lead somebody to technology, right? Whether it's, you know, find me someone who's worked with this mediator. Maybe the answer is foundation. Maybe the answer is courtroom insight, right?
[00:10:46] Carrie Remhof: We try to lead them to the right space, or we try to triage and kind of push them in the right spaces. They need to go. Maybe they need to go to the research team. Right. We kind of collaborate to get people to the right answers as quick as we can.
[00:11:02] Tom Baldwin: So it sounds like in a lot of ways you are the sort of information concierge for the lawyers.
[00:11:10] Carrie Remhof: Very much so. You know, how do we quickly find expertise? Right? Find me someone who's worked with this judge, right. Finally find me someone who's done a thicker case right? In Indiana. Like we try to lead people to that information.
[00:11:25] Tom Baldwin: And do you see, and as I mentioned earlier, we are seeing more firms, you know, either sort of, uh, dust off or reinvigorate this role at their firm.
[00:11:34] Tom Baldwin: Do you feel like this is a trend that's happening or is it just just a few very progressive firms?
[00:11:42] Carrie Remhof: I feel like it's a little bit of both. So I know AI is the big trend, but to me you really need strong data behind that AI to make decisions, right? I need to have strong experience data to find out who's linked to who, right?
[00:11:56] Carrie Remhof: I can't just ask Google, right? Google isn't, isn't gonna know. So it's important for me to make sure we have a sound structure of our experience data, and then also with that too, I feel like. It is progressive firms, right? That give an open space to allow for us innovation and to try things to fail fast, right?
[00:12:19] Carrie Remhof: And and be open to trying new things,
[00:12:21] Tom Baldwin: right? Yeah, we'll talk about that. Failing fast in a second, which is a good segue in, in my world. I hear more often than anything else that, oh, you know, our data's not great. We need this lengthy data strategy, which I used to write many of these in my prior life.
[00:12:37] Tom Baldwin: Mm-hmm. And it feels like that's where firms get stuck. And so for firms stuck in the, we need a perfect data strategy loop, what would your message be? Again, someone who's lived both sides of this coin.
[00:12:51] Carrie Remhof: My message is start small. Right. I don't have to boil the entire ocean before I get in the boat, right?
[00:12:59] Carrie Remhof: I say start somewhere like even Troutman has had foundation for eight years. Like we've had master data for like over a decade. We can always sharpen the pencil and make it better, and we focus on pieces, you know, kinda one quarter at a time. Like right now we're focused on client data is what we decided eight years ago what we need.
[00:13:21] Carrie Remhof: No. Okay. Well let's, let's stop and fix it. But we try to stay focused on a particular project. Get that kind of cleaned up versus trying to fix all the things at once because we're never gonna get any of it done. Right? We're gonna have a hundred projects at a status of 1%. Oh, we're moving 'em all forward, but really slow, right?
[00:13:44] Carrie Remhof: So whereas if I, if I pick kind of three main projects to focus on, that helps my team focus, it helps it focus like, let's. You know, let's work on what we are focused on today and then, okay, sure there are 97 other things to work on, but put 'em in the parking lot. Right. Come back to them in the next, in the next quarter.
[00:14:06] Tom Baldwin: Well, this goes back to something you said earlier, which I think overlaps quite nicely, which is the, the notion that when you were at Foundation, you really wanted to have a strong business case before you got started, not just tell me what other firms are doing. And I think similarly. If you take a step and zoom out and look at data more broadly, you also need to have sort of an outcome in mind.
[00:14:25] Tom Baldwin: And maybe it is, I want to tidy up my client list. I want to know what a client mean. What does a client mean at Firm X? Right? Or maybe it's my people data. I just want to have, you know, reliable data for something as simple as people's first and last name and have a definition for what FTE means. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:43] Tom Baldwin: That can be it. So I, I love that sort of connection because I, in, in the world that we live in, we see the same problems. You need to start small. And in working in a law firm, I think we also get stuck in this paradigm of like, everything has to be perfect. You know, you can't send out an email with a typo.
[00:14:58] Tom Baldwin: More or less have work product with mistakes. And yet in data, we kind of have to live in that space where we know it's not gonna be great from the start. You know, how do you set expectations with leadership to just tell them, Hey, look, the data's gonna be messy. We're we're cracking open the shed in ant Gertrude's backyard that hasn't been open for 30 years.
[00:15:16] Tom Baldwin: There's gonna be some things back there that none of us expect and be okay with that. Like how did you, have you done that firms in places you've worked at?
[00:15:25] Carrie Remhof: Yeah. It really comes to that message of innovation, right? Of, like you said, this is the first time we've opened the door to the shed, right? So one thing I, I teach my team, right?
[00:15:34] Carrie Remhof: If we send an answer back to an attorney saying, Hey, this is what we found, and if all of a sudden they, they quickly respond, well, this doesn't include this, this, or this. Right. And it's so quickly to get like, oh, oh, I didn't, I didn't do it right. No. We flip it. I'm like, oh, he looked at what I sent, like he notified me that I was missing something.
[00:15:56] Carrie Remhof: And then we look at it as an opportunity, right? To reach out and say, okay, we are missing data. Well, where could we get it from? And then that educates, you know, the practices of like, yes, we wanna have more data. Right. But, but I, I don't, I can't get it out of the attorney's head. Right. So maybe there's a data source we can use or there's a new business process we can use.
[00:16:20] Carrie Remhof: Um, 'cause the data will never ever be perfect and I'm not gonna wait for that either.
[00:16:27] Tom Baldwin: Waiting for that will, you'll be waiting a long time.
[00:16:31] Carrie Remhof: Exactly. Like I wanna move things forward and be successful, you know, along
[00:16:35] Tom Baldwin: the way. So. In your 30 plus foundation deployments, what separates the successful ones from the unsuccessful ones?
[00:16:46] Carrie Remhof: I think the successful ones are the ones that have a clear definition of what they're trying to accomplish with the tool I. Some of it roll into it and they're like, I wanna do everything right. I wanna start with chamber submissions. And I'm like, let's get your clients in matters. And they're first, right?
[00:17:02] Carrie Remhof: Like let's, let's focus on getting your core data in there. So the ones that really have those defined use cases of this is what I'm going to do with it. And also avoid data hoarding, right? Because so many times firms will be like, I just want everything from everywhere. Well, foundation's a platform. Form with a specific purpose, right?
[00:17:24] Carrie Remhof: Let's put things in there that really align with experience and keep it core to what that system is meant to do.
[00:17:31] Tom Baldwin: When you say data hoarding, what do you mean by that?
[00:17:34] Carrie Remhof: Oh, like they want everything from the CRM, like I watched one firm turn on their CRM connection, broaden s all 700,000 contacts into foundation.
[00:17:47] Carrie Remhof: Some of them were dead. Some of them, you know, were 25 years old. Some of them haven't even been on a mailing list. Right. In 25 years. So it's like be mindful and thoughtful about what you want it to do versus just bringing everything for the sake of everything.
[00:18:03] Tom Baldwin: Yeah. And so now here you are, you land at Troutman, armed with all this experience at Wilmer, all the 30 plus implementations at Foundation.
[00:18:12] Tom Baldwin: What made the deployment different at Troutman?
[00:18:16] Carrie Remhof: So coming into Troutman, so Foundation was seasoned at Troutman. It, there was a great start to it. They've always been, you know, a great innovator with foundation. But the part that was most exciting to me was to come in and revamp it because the, the platform has changed in a decade, right?
[00:18:35] Carrie Remhof: So there's new features, right, that weren't turned on. Because it's so easy to like see a release note, move on with your day, right? And don't think about all the, the features that are available. And then it was also coming in and rethinking the way we were cap capturing data. So while the intent, let's say five years ago as an associate's gonna go fill out this piece of information.
[00:18:58] Carrie Remhof: That they never did. Right? So let's, let's sharpen it up, right? How can we get litigation in there? So we built the matter connector with courtroom insight of like, Hey, come get me dock information and pull it in. Just get more creative and thoughtful about using foundation.
[00:19:15] Tom Baldwin: To me, that's always been sort of the.
[00:19:19] Tom Baldwin: The biggest cheat code you could have with any experienced deployment is acknowledging that you're not gonna get the data from lawyers for a variety of reasons and find a third party feed you trust and that you can pipe in and you know, literally overnight add judge parties outcomes jurisdictions to tens of thousands of matters that you'd never retroactively get.
[00:19:42] Tom Baldwin: People overlook that a lot, so I'm glad that you're leaning into that. You called it. In our prep call, hybrid profiling. Carrie, do you wanna talk about that a little bit?
[00:19:50] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, we do, because the original intent was attorneys were gonna go fill out these 15 fields about litigation type matters, where I've skinned it up.
[00:19:58] Carrie Remhof: I'm like, if you could give me the case number and the court, I can go get the rest from LexisNexis or dock alarm. I can go mine and get that data and bring it in and update it nightly so it becomes a hybrid. Uh, they still had to provide some information. You have to link external, like unique identifiers who are internal client matter numbers, but it's quicker
[00:20:24] Tom Baldwin: and you'd advocated sort of pick three use cases and get those dialed in.
[00:20:28] Tom Baldwin: What were those at Troutman?
[00:20:32] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, so when I started, the use cases were litigation, which we've talked about. The second was the proposal module. So while Troutman had it, it wasn't working. Like the templates weren't good, right? Just, no. No one had quite adopted that piece of the tool. So with our merger that went live January 1st, Troutman pepper lock.
[00:20:57] Carrie Remhof: Now, I was excited because I treated it as just a brand new implementation. Right? All of a sudden I have a 600 attorney firm that is joining me, right? So I leveraged it to say. Guys, the neighbors are coming over, we gotta clean this up, right? So I was like, we can't have, you know, throw a dirty house in here.
[00:21:19] Carrie Remhof: So I took the opportunity to kind of clean up, um, sharpen the pieces of foundation around proposals, right? Let's skinny it up on like what are the pieces of opportunity tracking that we really wanna capture. And then we rewrote all the templates, right? So we worked with Litera to get new templates, branded TR and Pepper lock went live with the the use cases on, okay, here's how you get people data out.
[00:21:42] Carrie Remhof: Here's how you get content pieces out. So that was a really fun use case to me and I love treating it like a new implementation. I also took the opportunity to redo all of our training materials. Because the videos were recorded five years ago aren't relevant anymore. Like we're a different firm, so. And everyone's so comfortable with technology now I skinneded it up.
[00:22:06] Carrie Remhof: I was like, I don't need a 10 page document. Like people know when an add new button is right, add new, right? Everyone has a smartphone with 85 apps on it. Like we can, we can take out some of the how to use technology pieces.
[00:22:21] Tom Baldwin: That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. I bet there's a lot of legacy, you know, quick reference cards or other training materials that.
[00:22:28] Tom Baldwin: Could use a refresh and get a bit more skinny down. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. I'm speaking of the merger. You all did something. You know, we talk about AI in lots of like whizzbang ways and we hear about all the amazing things. You all used it for something pretty practical that helped streamline the integration process.
[00:22:45] Tom Baldwin: And even, even though it's not like something you're gonna win an award for, I think it's a pretty novel use. It just goes to show the creativity you all take when thinking about how to use ai. Maybe you could just share a little bit about what y'all did with attorney images.
[00:22:57] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, for sure. So when the merger came up, I mean there's a shortened like time period.
[00:23:02] Carrie Remhof: Like there's a deadline January one, was it? So we had to meet the deadline. So our, our graphics team, they got creative of like, okay, there's 600 lock Lord attorneys. That we have to bring in with a thousand Troutman attorneys and we need one brand and one voice, and we needed our images to look the same.
[00:23:22] Carrie Remhof: Do you all of a sudden ask, you know every lock attorney to to sit down and get a professional photo done for $250 a minimum? Well, we found a really cool design firm in New York that was able to take all of our images. Use AI to get them all to the same branded look, right? So everyone has the office behind them.
[00:23:47] Carrie Remhof: It's a rectangle. Now. It used to be a square, right
[00:23:51] Tom Baldwin: Size. Just sizing images is a headache. If you've not ever dealt with that, it's a nightmare. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:55] Carrie Remhof: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So the attorney bios, that was a big win for us, right. Of get, you know, get AI to fix it and then there's probably 20%. Okay. Yeah. Somebody really did need a new, you know, headshot, right?
[00:24:09] Carrie Remhof: The nineties was a long time ago. It's, it's time to, time to update. Um, we also did that with our tombstone images, again, promoting the proposal generator piece of foundation. If I could get my new lock, Lord Associates to start using foundation, which is a platform they've always wanted, but they never had.
[00:24:33] Carrie Remhof: Well, let me take your 400 tombstone images and load them into foundation. But again, they're different. They're rectangles, they're not squares. So Litera came up with a, a really creative way to use a PowerPoint macro. Right, so put in ai, write me a PowerPoint macro that will resize things to this adding white space where I need it.
[00:24:57] Carrie Remhof: So we were able to quickly reshape all of those images to load back into foundation.
[00:25:01] Tom Baldwin: Amazing. Amazing, Carrie. Now, the other thing we talked about was, you know, hey, you went through this big merger and a lot of folks would love to learn sort of what you know to the extent you can share. What was the biggest lesson learned post merger?
[00:25:16] Tom Baldwin: Especially moving, you know, matter coverage and visibility and all that kind of good stuff.
[00:25:22] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, I think the best thing I learned was to, to really focus in on one piece at a time. So I talked about the tombstone, like migration to start with. So our tombstones have eight fields to them. Okay. I am gonna call it a success that I got the eight fields in.
[00:25:40] Carrie Remhof: I recognize there's probably some more experience fields. I could get in, but I had a three week window, right? So it was like, let me get the tombstone piece in and then I'll come back and say, okay, within that tombstone it's telling me a deal value. You know, it's telling me, you know, the acquirer, right?
[00:26:00] Carrie Remhof: Again, we do things in chunks, right, of like, let's get the tombstone in, get it focused, be ready for day one, January one. And then we created some spinoff projects to work in Q1 and Q2. Okay. Let's go back and like load data in a different way.
[00:26:16] Tom Baldwin: If you were to advise another firm, like we know in the news right now that's about to go through the same process, what would you, what advice would you give them?
[00:26:23] Carrie Remhof: I would advise them to look at, you know, at both sides, right? At both firms. And understand at the end of this, you are an entirely new firm, right? So I didn't want it to be, this was the troutman way versus this was the lock way. I brought them in early. We met weekly. Tell me your concerns. Tell me where your data is.
[00:26:48] Carrie Remhof: Let me do some show and tells, like, I know you can't get in the systems yet, but let's work on this stuff together. Like it's really a partnership to come in to recognize at the end of the day, we're Troutman Pepper lock. Now we're a different firm with different branding to different opportunities
[00:27:05] Tom Baldwin: and, and whether it's a, you know, post merger or just in general.
[00:27:09] Tom Baldwin: Why do you think some data projects, and I'm using that term specifically, not just experience projects, but data projects, why do you think some data projects struggle? What, what do you think is often the root cause of that?
[00:27:20] Carrie Remhof: I think we lack measuring success of a project, right? If you don't know what your end goal is, it's hard to get there, right?
[00:27:30] Carrie Remhof: Because data. It's like an octopus, right? Like it's got many tentacles, right? You think, you think you're working on this tentacle, but you're really over here. It's so easy to like end off, you know, end somewhere else that I think if upfront, if you set, this is what success looks like, we have a common view of our clients.
[00:27:51] Carrie Remhof: Right. We're able to pull a list of clients with their industries right together. Love, love that as a whole holistic approach.
[00:27:58] Tom Baldwin: Yeah, and it also gets back to something we talked about earlier, having that sort of, you know, you know, use case in mind and it doesn't have to be big. I think that's the other thing that people take a really big buy at the apple when you can start small.
[00:28:10] Tom Baldwin: You've talked about fostering a culture of innovation. What does that mean, you know, at the firm? And is there any difference between innovation at a firm and innovation at a place like ra?
[00:28:19] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, so innovation at a firm like law firms are very, you know, conservative. Like we're always avoiding risk, right?
[00:28:26] Carrie Remhof: That's the whole point of having a law firm. There's like some collaborative, you know, pieces you can work on together with an attorney, but I just find it all boils down to communication. Like, we are experimenting with this. This is what we expect to come out of it. This is how I'm going to measure success from my innovative project.
[00:28:49] Carrie Remhof: Right. And kind of lead them to what you are trying to do, the purpose of the what they're doing. But give the caveat of like, this is a draft, we're starting it, we're exploring it. Right. So tell me if you don't like it.
[00:29:02] Tom Baldwin: Yeah,
[00:29:02] Carrie Remhof: right. Look for that constructed feedback. Coming back,
[00:29:05] Tom Baldwin: setting the expectations, I think is so crucial.
[00:29:07] Tom Baldwin: And you know, as a follow up to that, I think it's hard. Not every firm is able to embrace this concept of fail fast, fail cheap. How did you create an environment where that was okay? I.
[00:29:19] Carrie Remhof: I mean, luckily that environment was there when I joined. So our fearless leader, will Gouss, um, has really created that environment within the firm that we are lucky.
[00:29:29] Carrie Remhof: Right. So we started with Athena, what, two years ago? Right? It was the first, you know, ChatGPT inside of a law firm. And again, it was put out there as you know, something to experiment with. And now. We're in it every day, you know, trying new technologies and using it. We're actually building out some Athena skills over top of foundation, which is very exciting.
[00:29:51] Carrie Remhof: So while I'm trying to capture data in a structured system, well, I want people to be able to put natural language over top of it to find what they need.
[00:30:02] Tom Baldwin: One of the trends that I've heard from a few guests on the show is that they're starting to look at traits. More so over titles where curiosity and flexibility are more important than someone's, you know, bullet points on a, a resume talk.
[00:30:16] Tom Baldwin: Talk to us about how that kind of came about and, and how you're using that in practice when you're looking at candidates.
[00:30:23] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, absolutely. I find it's more important to have those customer service skills and those curiosity skills of like, it, it's really around that core like business analysis skills.
[00:30:35] Carrie Remhof: Right. I wanna be able to ask questions. I wanna listen, right? Because when somebody comes to us with, Hey, I'd like you know this tool to do this well, it's easy to quick, maybe go set something up. But I always ask my team. Go meet with the person, find out what, what they're trying to do, have them share their screen, right?
[00:30:58] Carrie Remhof: Look at what they're doing because maybe what they've asked you in a one sentence in an email isn't really what they need. So when I, when I look for candidates, I look for business s skills, like how do you relate to people? How do you find empathy as well? Because even come, you know, lock Lord coming in.
[00:31:21] Carrie Remhof: They have brand new systems. They have brand new jobs, right? Coming in on day one. So we have to be able to meet them where they are, right? So we've done foundation forever, but it's day one for them, right? Let's give it to 'em in pieces. So. Business analysis skills are like the most important to me. I can teach you a technology right?
[00:31:43] Carrie Remhof: At any point in time you get a new app on your phone, you figure out what to do with it. Technology can be taught, but customer service and analysis skills are the number one for me.
[00:31:52] Tom Baldwin: Yeah, fair. Um, speaking of Athena and ai, what excites you, kind of switching gears here, what excites you about how AI can improve, you know, either external client service or internal workflows and, uh, service requests.
[00:32:07] Carrie Remhof: Yeah, I'm excited that AI and Athena can get people to make decisions more quickly so we can put more natural language searching on top of our existing data, um, and expose it. Faster, right? So someone doesn't have to know, oh, I have to go to foundation, I have to advanced search, I have to know these, you know, I have to have a PhD in search to get, you know, the search interface is
[00:32:32] Tom Baldwin: a little sophisticated, I'll just say in foundation.
[00:32:35] Tom Baldwin: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:36] Carrie Remhof: So we are coming up with just common use cases on what we get right. To quickly find. Like, our best example with the merger is you have two different firms with a different set of lawyers. Well, I don't know. I don't know anyone. Right? So find, you know, find me someone you know that can help me.
[00:32:54] Carrie Remhof: So it's a quick way of connecting people, right? I can quickly search for someone based on what they have written in their biography, right? If they say it in their biography, they're probably pretty good about good with it, so I can locate and find somebody quickly With that information,
[00:33:09] Tom Baldwin: is there anything that makes you a little nervous about adoption of AI and legal?
[00:33:13] Carrie Remhof: I just worry people are gonna make decisions without really verifying. We still need a gut check, like, is this really helping me? So that's why I'm trying to be like very s. Focus. Right. Let me give you like good use cases. Like I'm not gonna give you all the foundation in Athena because Lord knows what it's gonna come back with.
[00:33:35] Carrie Remhof: Right? But if I give you a common use case of like, Hey, find me an attorney that does this, that's a quick ask.
[00:33:43] Tom Baldwin: And what do you think firm's biggest blind spots are when they think about their own data?
[00:33:48] Carrie Remhof: I think the blind spot is being able to let things go.
[00:33:53] Tom Baldwin: What do you mean by that?
[00:33:55] Carrie Remhof: So many peer firms, right, that I talked to even today, they are waiting so much for perfection.
[00:34:02] Carrie Remhof: Uh, you know, an example I have is we worked with getting our matters linked up to our litigation cases. We worked with Courtroom Insight, they did some AI to kind of match us, right? They got us 80% there. I demoed this to another peer firm, I was like, Hey, it's really great. They got us 80% and they're like, well, well we can't do this until we're a hundred percent.
[00:34:24] Carrie Remhof: And I'm like, I am 80% farther than I was. I was like, let's move it forward, right? So sometimes I think the blind spot is the perfection. I'm gonna, for all risk to be removed before I move forward with this and, and what I recognize in my career, even at a law firm is. I can move forward with things. Right.
[00:34:45] Carrie Remhof: So my role is data firm intelligence. I'm not work product, I'm not giving it to a, a client. Right, right. So it's a little bit of a different lens.
[00:34:58] Tom Baldwin: Yeah. The risk factor's a little less severe. Right. It's not like if you accidentally publish or file a brief with the court that has a, a case cited. That's not a real case.
[00:35:10] Tom Baldwin: It's a little different than. We are directionally off by a couple matters on a report and foundation.
[00:35:15] Carrie Remhof: Exactly. Stakes aren't as high. Mm-hmm.
[00:35:17] Tom Baldwin: Um, cool. Well, hey, last, last few questions I have for you. Is there a book or a podcast or an idea you've been returning to as of late?
[00:35:27] Carrie Remhof: I've been following Alison for pr.
[00:35:31] Carrie Remhof: She did the ILTA Women's Conference this year and it was all about being a badass. But like still being nice, right? Because I'm Midwestern. Nice, right? But I also like wanna give myself the ability to be a badass, right? Like I can, I can talk about my experiences, I can be proud of what I've done, but also be a nice person and help somebody else.
[00:35:58] Tom Baldwin: The two don't need to be mutually exclusive a hundred percent. Um, who, who in legal innovation or data do you think more people should be paying attention to besides yourself? Of course.
[00:36:09] Carrie Remhof: Oh, please. I would look to some of those like more traditional legal tech places. So like LexisNexis, I know it's like a behemoth, right?
[00:36:21] Carrie Remhof: But they are being very creative, you know, with their APIs and their. Open to new ideas of how to share their data. I think they've realized not everyone's gonna pull data from their user interfaces, so I love that they're collaborating and sharing more information through technology.
[00:36:40] Tom Baldwin: Awesome. Carrie, that's it for the show.
[00:36:43] Tom Baldwin: If people wanna follow up with you directly, what's the best way to connect with you?
[00:36:47] Carrie Remhof: LinkedIn, finally
[00:36:49] Tom Baldwin: LinkedIn. You got it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Carrie. That's a wrap for this episode of Overruled by Data. If this podcast resonated with you, if you took one or two things away from it, you want to hear more from law firm leaders that have been there and done that hit the fall button.on text goes here